Transcript

00:00:00:05
[Jenny]: Today we have two, folks who are going to be leading this conversation. Carol Ng’ang’a is the founder of the Msingi Trust. You can listen to her podcasts. Her podcast, Msingi Talks, on all major podcast streaming channels. And has been with us on the Global Council for about three years. In another couple of days.

And Martha Lidia Oxy Chuy from — who is the Guatemala National Director for World Connect. Also a member of our Global Council. Also a member of the OYW Indigenous Council, the board of directors for the MAIA Economic Development Corporation and Women’s Justice Initiative, and president of Mujeres Liderando Guatemala. I had to cut out a few of Lidia’s different organizational roles because they just didn’t all fit. But, welcome to this conversation. We’re excited that you all are here to hear about, a conversation about giving in different contexts. I will turn it over to you all and start sharing our presentation.

00:01:18:00
[Carol]: All right. Thank you so much, Jenny. And thank you, everyone, for joining us in this conversation. There’s so much to talk about. And, I’m grateful for the opportunity to to speak into this very confusing and complicated conversation.

Why I wrote the article: as, the beginning of the article is like, the global philanthropy network — it confuses me a lot. And so I was expressing my confusion in the questions that I carry as I work in this, in this field. And so one of the reasons was to air out the contradictions. And then the other reason was that we needed to ask, ask ourselves that we honestly explore not just the economic systems that — but also the NGO and philanthropy systems that rely on poverty to, to sustain itself. And so how when, when one of the — one of the values from CCF is that we need — we also need to to — there’s a point there that says that we need to accept that we gain from the philanthropy world as well, because that’s where we get our food — we get paid to be in the philanthropy sector.

And so we ask ourselves, do we benefit from this, from this, from this world as well? So, then — the main one of the, the two — the two main ones as well, was to highlight and center how the poor — what we would call the poor — how the poor give and how that is, is tabulated or how that is recorded, if it is. And then how they give as locals within their communities and how money is given back in terms of remittances. And someone, someone said — I think in the chat, someone gave numbers on the on remittances and the latest one from — for their — for Africa is that remittances in Africa are $90 billion. Official, official donor aid is $58 billion. And then — that’s in USD — and then philanthropy is $2 billion. Yet when we ask what the face of giving is, it is never the ones who offer remittances. It’s always the the big NGO organizations and most of them are white. You know, so by remittances, the money that comes back into the continent, most of it is from people, our families, our friends, and relies on mostly immigrant labor and all of that. So — yeah.

So asking, what is the face of philanthropy? The face of philanthropy is not the NGOs. It is the poor people — who we would call poor people. And I think most of the times we have a problem with the phrase “the poor people” because of the political connotations of that. So that’s why I wrote the the article. And, I’m really curious to hear and to explore and to be in conversation with Lidia as, as we reflect on the article.

So, Lidia, welcoming you into the conversation. So I would ask, what, when did you learn or when did would you say you learned that you were poor? And I’ll also share my my experience.

00:05:46:02
[Lidia]: Well, hello, everyone. This is Lidia Oxi joining from Guatemala. And I’m sorry, because it seems like my internet it’s been a little bit unstable. But. Yeah.

So just before getting into that question, just wanted to share a little bit of why we also — like why I also join the CCF Community and, like three year — like almost four years ago, like I, I kind of tap into like the nonprofit resource mobilization role at the one of the organization that I work for that is called MAIA. And when I joined, there were almost no information about philanthropy in Guatemala or fundraising or any other resource group that I could join.

And then I started to also look for, for programs from universities in Guatemala and actually, like no university at the time offer any course, like any even group session, whatever. So there basically was nothing that I could get a hand of. And so I started to look in Guatemala, like, who was doing fundraising. And then I also kind of discovered that most of the fundraising and, and a lot of the resources that come to Guatemala, like about maybe 80% of them roughly comes from the US, at least the data that, that that the cash money that comes and then another percentage comes from Europe. And then there is some here. But I, we don’t we just don’t have the data. And so we started to see this. Like I also starting to pay attention to like some of the practices. And where could I get help because like, you see so many strategies and efforts, but not any of them, like first was in Spanish.

So English is my third language, which also makes it a little bit harder for everyone to get access to resources. And then I came across CCF and it was just like, it felt like, it was, a beautiful community. Not just for the resources that it offer, but it also because it felt like some of the articles that I was reading from CCF really spoke to some of the challenges that — and some of the so many questions that I had about the fundraising, philanthropy, especially in Guatemala. So I just I wanted to share a little bit of that. And then as we were talking with Carol, we also started to think like, but where should we start?

And then we came up with this question, like, when did you learn you you were poor? And this came up because especially I never felt like I was poor. Like, honestly, until maybe I did program in, in the US and then I started to see — I got a scholarship to study in Wisconsin. So I was a couple of years in Wisconsin, and then I started to read a lot about poverty and a lot of the times, like the name of the country would come up about being poor. But I never really thought, like, I was poor. Like, you know, like I had food. I had, I had a shelter. Like the community that I come from that it’s 95% Indigenous, Native community. Like, I never really felt like I was poor, like, in the broader sense. Maybe. Back to you, Carol.

[Carol]: Yeah. Thank you. I think, for me, I learned that I was poor when I, when I joined — that I come from a poor background — when I joined high school. And so I came from, like, an urban, rural community. Did well in my primary school exam. And so when I went into the, was called into one of the best schools in the country. And of course, if it’s one of the best schools, there will be financial disparities. And so every day was a constant reminder of what I did not have yet again. And this for me, indicates how I enter into communities, because we go and ascribe poverty to people who do not think that they are poor. So and, and, and so being confronted mainly by what I did not have or what our family did not have in terms of material wealth, yet as Lidia has expressed that there was food, there was — it was not, it was not a lot, but there was food. It was, it was not like a table of so much options. But there was something. And so, yeah, when we, when I learnt that I was poor, was in high school. Then Lidia, for you, when did you learn, when did you become aware of racism?

00:11:27:06
[Lida]: This is, I think this is like, one of the most personal ones for me. Like, compared to the other ones. I when I joined, high school, like, so — so in Guatemala, the situation has changed a little bit over the last 20 years. But when I graduated, when I graduated from middle school, there were no [high] school at my village. In my village is a village of about 30,000 people. But there were, there were, there was no high school. So, which meant that I would have to find an option outside my village, and then, also apply for a scholarship and join a boarding school. And through that boarding school, I become aware of other ethnicity. And, so Guatemala has like four different ethnic groups. There are the Mayan, the Xincas, Garifunas, and no Indigenous.

And so after this, like, after middle school, I joined the high school. And then I had a really good friend. He came from different side of Guatemala. And I remember one of the conversations we had, after our first year of, of high school, and he was like, with some, some sort of surprise, he said, like he wanted to apologize. And then I wasn’t really understanding why. And he said that before meeting me. His name is Mibsan, and, he said, like he wanted to apologize because before we were friends, he used to believe that all Indigenous people were ignorant, that we’re poor and we’re good for nothing. And I, I kind of laughed back then because I was 15. And then I started to ask, but why? Why do you have such ideas and, and who taught you that? And he said, well, like in my, in my town, which is like about nearly 90% non-Indigenous, well that’s kind of what everyone says, like, and just like it, it keeps repeating among the circles. And, and then I started questioning — like I had never really thought about, I never thought about race before or ethnicity. The only thing that I remember from my family was like, I — because most of us were Indigenous, there were a couple of people that were not Indigenous, and my parents were really protective in the sense that just to be careful, like maybe you should not go out as much or certain things, but they never also explained to us like that — they never shared the history.

So Guatemala has 36 years of civil, genocide — civil war, genocide in Guatemala that ended in 1996 with peace accords. And there was like a signature of peace agreements. But we never had that history. Like, I think part of the things that happened in our countries, and I’m sure that, it happens in many countries — because sometimes people, parents want to protect their kids of the sad stories past, so they never share the feelings, what happened.

And so I kind of didn’t know anything about the history of Guatemala when — by 15. And then, but, by hearing this kind of comments, so I also got to wondering like why people would think in certain ways and started to dig a little bit further. And that’s, that’s when like, you start finding books and things like that and things actually starting to make sense. But yeah. So my, my mother lost her first husband. So a lot of people were killed: the community leaders, people who were like during their last years of high school or university. So like, I’m basically know at least one person from each family at the village that disappeared or was killed. And so up to — up to now, there are about like 2000 — 200,000 people that are still disappear. And, so many more that were murdered. So anyways, with all of this, so what I see happens, it’s like, silence, misinformation, a lack of education always contributes to all of this ideas that people start making. And there are not spaces where we can come together like, as — there are not many spaces as this school where you come — you can be friend, you can meet people, you can share at a personal level. So I think that’s kind of the first time that I — I thought, like, people really dislike me because of being like brown, Indigenous, having a last name that was Mayan. And then also that was when I started like learning more and and questioning about some certain ways we were living or we live in. How about you, Carol?

00:17:02:04
[Carol]: Oh, I learnt — thank you for sharing that Lidia. Very personal. And also the the reality of the histories that we don’t know, of the context. Like, I didn’t know about the Guatemalan context as well. Thank you for that.

I learnt that I was Black when I went to South Africa, actually. When I was — I had finished high school, went to study, and that was where the racial stratification was very, very — of course in our Kenyan history, there’s the understanding of colonialism and that there were white people, and all of that, but my Blackness as an inferior…Blackness as inferiority was presented to me when I was, I went to study in South Africa. And you see, sometimes it was overt and like people not talking to you just because you’re Black. And other times it was very covert with like, these, these is a smile that you’re given that’s very suspicious that you like you, you — like I am a good person, but you don’t belong here, so find your place. So that was something that I, that I experienced and, and it was, it was never Black as an equal. But Black as inferior.

And the reality is that some of these people were our teachers or other people who had authority over us in the institutions where we were at and were the people who serve you in restaurants. So you had to you had to relate with it in a way here. So I think we, when we were discussing how we would have this conversation, it was important for us to have the poverty and the race conversations as a setup, because, most times we, as we are writing, as we are serving in communities, we do not, we forget that this applies to us as well. And what we write is about us. It’s about our stories. And so I want to ask Lidia, when you read that column, what stood out for you? What resonates with your context? And how did you receive it?

00:19:34:03
[Lidia]: Yeah. Thank you. Yes. So I don’t know if everyone has read the article, but if not, please, we highly encourage you to read it. So, because I, I know you for a while now, Carol, like three years. So I always have the idea that, some of our context relates because, like, South America, South Central America, I know, and so is Africa is always, like, a stand in so many, situations. Not, unfortunately not the best of headlines. But something that really resonates — resonated for me was the title. Like, people — like “’Poor People’ Do Not Give Back, [They] Just Give.” And then also starting to pay more attention to I guess that’s an exercise that has been in going — ongoing. And I think it’s, it should always be ongoing. Like also to pay attention to that local, communities to the neighbors, etcetera. But at least in my village — so there is like, if you I don’t know who, who have been in Guatemala, but there are definitely two different sides of Guatemala. Like the rural areas of Guatemala, and Guatemala City, which in Guatemala City it’s being perceived to be very dangerous. And all the rural areas or the farther areas of Guatemala from Guatemala City are some of the cities that are more, like people are happier, people are more, gentle and more friendly.

And when I look at my village that it’s called San Jose Poaquil Chimaltenango, and it’s a Kaqchikel village, like I see people, with, like, doing a lot of work since forever, like, basically in our communities. And unlike many other countries, like the presence of, of government, it’s I mean, it’s very little. Like police, the budget for the major — for doing, any infrastructure work — so like the budget that we have, all the investment that goes toward community is very little.

And so you wonder why we have survived like and we have endured over 500 years of oppression. And then we start seeing around that our families have lived with what has been basic, very close to nature, like, people — even for now, for example, were like going mushroom hunting and we eat a lot of herbs. But whenever something happens, especially during the pandemic our villages were — I mean a little bit, maybe some of us were worried, especially about medicine, but I don’t think it — I don’t think anyone was worried about food, because like whenever there is scarcity, people will exchange food. Like at my fam — at my parents house, we always have herbs, we have pepper, we have potatoes, or güisquiles that I that’s a vegetable that I haven’t found in, in the, in the US. And it has some roots.

So there’s always like, like people willing to help, like in one of the, like one of the resource that I always, I like — kind of think it’s, it’s more and more important: it’s time. Most of the people to give time like as much as possible. Like taking care of your sister’s kids or if someone is sick, people would take turn to take food. And so all of this resources, support, help is not immobilized. And people give it without expecting anything at all. And a lot of the times, like, you see people like, why these people, is this person is giving when they don’t have even enough maybe for the rest of the family. But people see it as a natural way of being. Like, if you are part of the community, it’s like, it’s also a sort of responsibility or commitment to take care of the, the neighbor and everyone who lives in your village. So that’s kind of, yeah what resonated heavily to me, like the similarities that there are across some cultures and that also how sometimes you can lose, lose it as you move away from certain structures, community structures.

00:24:30:00
[Carol]: Thank you. Thank you, Lidia. I think for me, as I was reflecting as well, I think it’s the same for us. It’s, it’s that, that there’s always these are communities, even, systemized ways of of caring for community.

So let’s say someone dies in the community, there, there are these forums that especially — and we’ll also talk about the gender aspect of it is that the women are part of this community forums that then land in the homes immediately after there’s a death in the community. And then they take care of everything. They cook they are, the ones responsible for the, the duties and responsibilities of keeping the fire burning in the, in the home. And so that can never, that can never be monetized, in a sense. Even with these contributions that cannot be monetized.

And, another thing, as you were sharing, Lidia, that, you talked about is the time, the time aspect where people wak alongside each other for as long as possible. Your kids will come, will come, and they stay within their auntie’s home or in some — in a relative’s place, and that’s giving. Even during COVID. I think one of the reasons — we, we thought that the African continent, there was this fear that Africa would be ravaged by COVID, but it — we survived. The death toll was not as much as, as as as was expected. There was people who died, but there was — the death toll was not as much. And so, you ask, what is it about this continent where — that survives with — that survive away from the metrics, the expected metrics of survival? So that’s one of the things. So and it is, as we had talked about, the visibility of the non-monetary giving and, we talked about even in our communities, the people who will come and ensure that the grave is dug. Yeah. They might not have the money to contribute to — towards the funeral, but they will dig the grave. They will go and fetch water. They will be the ones ensuring that the shoes that — the chairs are being wiped and all of that. And so that is non-monetary giving. In our organizations there are people who come and take care of the kids. Yeah, they will volunteer and offer time, or they might say, I don’t know much English, but what I will do is I will do x, y and zed. Yeah.

And so those non-monetary gifts that come into our communities, into our organizations, yet we do not, we do not — we’ve not created a way to honor them, and to celebrate, to identify, to honor and to celebrate. We only have plaques for those that give $10,000 USD, but never the one who gives the 10 hours, 20 hours to to our, to our organization. So that’s, that’s what I was thinking about as I was reflecting on it. And I don’t see this as an expert in it, but as someone who’s questioning how working — how am I honoring the people who give to [indecipherable] in ways that are not monetary? Yeah. We, we, Lidia, there was something that, as we were discussing, we talked about dehumanizing people just to fundraise. Would you like to speak about that?

00:28:50:04
[Lidia]: So, yes. So I, I think and, yes, and this, is this, we, we tried to think with Carol how to make this maybe not so sensitive, but I think it’s just like, I mean, this is kind of some of the things that definitely stood out a lot for us. And the dehumanizing people — I think one of the practices that I seen from early childhood, was like there was a nonprofit in my village that was doing really an amazing job, and I think it was a sponsor — and I don’t even know this organization if still exist or not — but it’s, I think back then, like 30 years ago, was Christian Church Children. And it was really good. Like, it would provide resources for kids to go to school. But I felt also like some of them, maybe some of the questions that I had over these practices were how much time like the kids and the families will spend to to thank people for, everything basically. So like, I, it’s almost like every week they had to send some letters. And because also one of my brothers was part of the program, it also created some challenges at the very family level. It was a sponsorship program. And because he was sponsored and not the rest of us — so there were some requirements that, that he would have to get a, b, c like shoes, clothing or whatever, but not benefiting the entire family. So over time, it kind of created some sort of resentment, like why he was treated. And of course, when you are a child you don’t like, you don’t question like where the money comes from. You just see what the others have and you don’t have. But then I also started to see like why he was having like more. Like his own furniture his own, like more pair of shoes and things like that. But then the other thing that I saw was like this organization disappear like 15 years later or 10 years later, just because the focus of the organization is shift, or that the country of priorities shift.

And that’s also when I’m starting to think, some of the practices, like international organizations, with good intent, they, sometimes you have to like, I understand that you have to prioritize, but also, I think there should be a responsibility of creating capacity at the local level. And what I, I been seeing in many of those examples in, in places is like the, there were commitment, from international organizations to send funding. But that withdraw this funding happened sometimes from one year to another and there were no capacity of fundraising transfered locally, which then when when this funding was withdrawn, pretty much the the projects close. And I seen that in many places in Guatemala. I think that’s one. And I did some volunteering a way, like a long time ago, and some of the other practices — and I see that a lot of — in a lot of places, organizations — and I like, I like going to the websites because, like, I think the websites can tell how some of this work is being done. Whether you are using images of empowerment or are using images just to be like, really — I seen some people on these pictures where it’s not at their best, like, like really old clothes, like your hair, it’s really, I mean, a mess. Like, not the nice pictures of you, not the nice versions of you, but the other ones that you might not want to see ten years later in, in, a book or something like that. And then the way of phrasing it, or the way that the people describing you: most of the times there is no consent behind these practices. And I think that’s kind of — that one of the — especially, recently, I also try to — whatever I been done in using images, I, we have also implemented a child policy protection, child — child protection policy and also consent from child from children and their families because of this matter. Like it also feels like it violates your rights. And sometimes, because you are seen — your a user, a beneficiary — like you don’t have a lot of option to say “yes” or “no” sometimes or — but most of the times, you are not even ask. And so I think that’s also like a huge responsibility. And, and once again, I know that some of this practices are being done with good intent intention. But also like, I think some of the reflections that I’m having and, and I’m also like, I, I might myself done a couple of this mistakes [indecipherable] practices.

But I think the reflection that we, we should have, it’s also like always consulting the people that we’re working with, like taking the context, like really asking — most of the people that I work for, or at least the generation of my mother, like, all women under 56, they don’t like to be taken, like they don’t like pictures taken. So every time that I try to get a picture of my mom, she, she really I mean, she’s not very happy with that, but then like it — then like seeing her picture like on — in a very not nice picture of her in a book or something like that. That would be something that it’s going to be shameful for her. So I think that like, try to think how people feel with this text, pictures, and how they might feel like 10 years later, 20 years later, and especially what we write and how we describe people.

00:35:33:21
[Carol]: Mmm. Thank you, Lidia. Yeah. And that and it’s very important because I feel like you only get that when you have relationships. You will only know that mothers at 60 year olds do not like to have their photos taken when the power dynamics have been — you’ve understood that, you are in community and learning together. But most of the times, because as NGOs, as organizations, when you are in the community,  the power dynamic is very skewed. Then we wouldn’t know that until people talk to us and people feel that we are safe enough for them to tell that.

I’d like us to talk a bit about remittances. I shared this statistics around remittances in Africa, and the latest one of — from the East African philanthropy was that in Africa it was 19 — remittances accounted for $19 billion of the money that came into the continent. Then the official donor aid was $58 billion, and then philanthropy was $2 billion dollars. Then, I think, Lidia, you have some statistics about remittances in Guatemala.

I want to ask two questions, and I’d like for us to consider it, as we open our plenary as well. We have a lot of practices and we have systems, and we have part of many things to deal with the official donor aid and philanthropy. Yet we have no or I don’t know, maybe there is. We — the remittances conversation is still very or maybe hush hush yet.

Then there is also the, the fact that the numbers show that people who are able to do direct impact and the, the writings and the research around remittances is that the remittances actually stretch for longer because one, there’s trust — there’s trust in the family, so, so the if I’m giving money back home, when we say “we left home to change home.” So you want to change your home? So you give it to someone who’s trusted, you know, the direct need, and then these — you’re going to come back to it. That the — me not investing back in home means that if I ever come back home, lack of investing in home will affect me in one way or another.

So, I’m really curious to hear from others. Please, please, let’s hear from others about what is — what stood out for you in the article. But, Lidia, I’d like you to speak about remittances and how that plays out in, in your context.

00:38:46:18
[Lidia]: Super. Yeah, I, I thought this data was also very important when I saw it in your article, like, Carol. What I, what I can see, like, at least in Guatemala, we don’t have, I don’t, I don’t think I have specific data on how much it’s been consume, but I know that 20% of Guatemala’s GDP comes from remittances, which it’s actually more of what the private sector produces. So there is some heavy discussion between — because private sector in Guatemala has such a power and has, has participation in very important decision making tables.

But what we’re seeing also — and there is historically this — and I’m bringing the private sector here because once again, they have acquired [indecipherable] on behalf of Guatemala because of the perception or justification that they, they offer a lot of jobs. But when we — or it’s being compared to the investment by expenditure of the remittances, it seems like remittances are creating more jobs than the private sector. So I think those are like, I mean, at least in Guatemala, this discussion is a very important because of that investment and also where it’s being used.

And remittances was a very important the during COVID, and I think this is one of the main reason why most of the Guatemalan families were able to survive because they were recipients of remittances. So even though, like here in Guatemala, the government didn’t do much, but at the least families had that funds — had, had money to buy food. And also to get the medicine. So I don’t have the specific data, Carol, on how much they spend for, like investment in the community. [Indecipherable] supporting others.

But, you know, in Guat— in, in other countries that are sending remittances, maybe they use between 10 to 20% of what they make, and then the rest is coming to Guatemala. So they really try to be efficient. Most of them leave with the hope of returning. And so that’s why they try to save as much as possible, because they have, like their mother and the rest of siblings. And in average, I think the family size is of five members in Guatemala, but a huge percentage of the the money that they make, it’s being send back to support the rest of the family’s education, food, housing. And in addition to that they build a house or they are like establishing a business. So a huge — a significant percentage is like it’s being used for food, but a important percentage is also supporting the rest of extended family. But I don’t have specific data for that, Carol.

00:42:17:06
[Carol]: Thank you, Lidia. That’s very helpful. And these’s a statements there that you said they, they send because they will return back. And that for me speaks to the immigrant question: is, is that people want to come back home. And so they invest back home. So this is — thank you, Lidia. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you, everybody, for being part of this conversation.

I’d like to open up this session for some feedback or some comments from the plenary. If maybe — Jenny, can be on the lookout for hands that are raised. But if you have a question, a comment, something that stood out for you as we’ve been having this conversation, please share that with us and we’ll — would love to for this to be a conversation as well. Because you’re all part of context and have been grappling with this as well.

Allison here shared that for those in the US, Trump’s Big Bullshit Bill changed the policy on taxing remittances. And you’ve shared, they’ve shared the link, but previous versions of the tax only applied to the, to non-US citizens. The passed tax applies to all remittances, senders of cash transfers, money orders or cashier’s check. Yeah. Yes. Thank you for sharing that.

Then Megan shared, “thank you for this conversation the article says ‘CCF values sound very African to me.” That’s a thought I had, as you are talking about the collective responsibility to support each other. The U.S and whiteness value individuals. Would love to hear more thoughts on this if — oh, values individualism. Would love to hear more thoughts on this if you’d like.” Lidia, would you speak on on that? Or I could speak, because I said “it sounds very African to me,” but does that raise —

[Lidia]: I just — [Indecipherable]

00:44:29:09
[Carol]: Lidia. Yeah.

00:44:31:12
[Lidia]: I just wanted to share an example of how maybe I been trying to also like, use CCF values in my work. Like, I have the opportunity now to work with community leaders. And what I’m trying to do is offer a way that they — and that’s providing like seed funding for a community opportunity that they have or need. So what I’m trying to — try to do — and this is like, I would have done that very differently if I wasn’t aware of CCF. But what I’m trying to do, it’s like finding places where they can meet us, people, human in trying to broaden their network of support and get help and also like supporting with all — like just application, like, and that’s also maybe, that’s relates to me because I hate a lot of applications, especially the ones that have so many requirements and very low possibility of getting the funding.

So what I’m trying to do with these people also walk with them throughout the process. Make it as simple as possible. Get with enough information of why they, they need the funding, and let the communities prioritize where they use the funding. But one thing that we thought that speaks a little bit to like valuing other resources, is in the proposal. Like they have to put, like also all the time that they are investing and put a price to it. So like that whole proposal values time, in-kind resources, funding, anything that has value for that community. And also when we speak about the project or the program, it has the total. And also that the community sees that money that they have provided. Which also uplift the spirit in the work.

And so I think it’s more like, and I’m also like using a lot of their feedback to work with them at each step and also including in workshops or conferences, like things that they need. So I’m doing way more like, surveys just to have their voices, feedback, and include that in everything that I planned for the whole process. So I think this is like at least a way that I can use some of the principles, like in practice.

And, I think there are more examples. I just wanted to share this one that is, I mean, at least it’s very relevant for me. Thank you, Carol.

00:47:10:21
[Carol]: Thank you. And maybe to respond to that for me, is that especially the, the idea that I give because — I give because — let me, let me try and phrase this the way I see it in my head, I give because I know that it’s — the giving is like a part of river. And I will need to be supported as part of this community later on.

So that there is not only — there’s never always an eternal giver and eternal recipient. That we don’t know when need happens. It will happen in a community somewhere. And so in what — it might be my home today, it might be yours tomorrow. So we are in this community because we are interdependent. So that was one of the reasons where I felt that this was very important.

And seeing, a few more, conversations here. Yeah.

Hannah: “Really struck by the comment in the article about how the idea of ‘giving back’ has been normalized and the ‘taking’ isn’t questioned.” Yes. You give back from where you’ve taken and most of the times it’s 0.01% of what you’ve taken and people — and you want us to clap for you. That’s usually what it is. And then you also have like levels in millions of administration that ensures that those that you stole from are not stealing from you. Again, that doesn’t make sense.

Then, Chris has shared an article from the Hub that will be shared in the Black  Philanthropy Month. So please have a look at it.

Then, yes, “I 100% — 1000% hate grant applications.” I, I share that as well. I don’t like them.

Then, Rebecca shares “the interrogation of how international non-governmental organizations can be localizations or networks with local orgs, but don’t deal with the day-to-day realities of grassroots organizations.” Yeah.

“It made me think about the different places I’ve worked that are set up that way.” And let me — I would— sharing that I wrote that because those were things that actually happened. Someone like — and then — or maybe someone comes in, they’ve worked for so long. They have mud, muddy shoes, they’ve had to rescue — spent the day the whole evening rescuing someone from a police station.

But what, what will — people will see is that that person came late. They came dirty. They came sweaty. Yeah. Without understanding the, the context of what people are actually going through in their communities. And so a better understanding of — and then I would also add about the, the restrictions around the money in the grants and, money that comes into the, into the organizations that, that is — there was a grant I once received that had four multi organizations monitoring it. And the money that they’re using to monitor it is much more than what they’ve given us. And so what are we really saying about that? Yeah. And these people will come in, they’ll have a cab that’s outside the whole day. And then if you ask them for $5000 more USD. they will never give that money to you. And so what are we really doing when you, when you’re doing that.

So I can see the time is going. Yeah. The localization or networks. Yes. Localization is happening a lot in the community. And then they go with all the expatriate money. And then what happens at the community level is then we start thinking that the, the Kenyan face, the Congolese face does not know what to do with the organization. But the reality is that all the money leaves with the white people. The reality is that they don’t trust us with as much budget as they trust the white people. Yeah. Lidia. Closing remarks.

00:51:44:08
[Lidia]: No, I think you have mentioned all the important ones. No, I think my only reflection it’s always to think about how much difference we’re doing in this job and if there is any room for improvement. And as I said, that is because some of the restrictions that Carol mentioned, like, I always dislike when it says, like, you cannot invest in your team, like professional development, it has to be going to the users.

But for — for countries as our context, they are considered third world country because like the governments have been very corrupt, the system have not work for us for hundreds of years. If we don’t invest in capacity building, in providing good salaries so people can feed their families like there is no way that we can make that change that is so, so required. So definitely. Yes. So like sometimes it’s considered to be overhead. But for me, it’s more like investing in the talent in the capacity of, of people. And that also provides us like sustainability, leadership sustainability for the long run. So I think that’s an important piece, which was not obvious for me, like, a few years ago. And also paying attention to make people be part of the decision making at all levels.

So this piece for me, inclusion, equity, it’s so important in Guatemala. Especially for what has been missing for so many years that if we don’t invest in women, in youth, so there is definitely no way we can change our future because we need to include them as soon as possible and provide the facilities to make it possible for them to be actively participate in these spaces that for so long has been like led for so little, so few people. But now I think there is space for, for more people to join us. And I think that’s kind of where — to think about what our role was overall, either a leader, a facilitator, decision making. And I think we can take these roles in different spaces and include others. But on behalf of — I don’t know if any of you want to say something else — but like, just on behalf of CCF, thank you for joining us. We’re pleased to share some of the experiences, reflections with you. And thank you for making, the space.

00:54:15:12
[Carol]: Jenny, do you have something to say? Maybe I can share my closing reflections. Is that, I, I think — let’s just give let’s give, and let’s not take. Let’s — and when we do, let’s acknowledge that we’ve taken. Yeah. And, because we are in this system, let’s be honest about what it is we are removing from our space. And let’s keep doing justice in every thing that we are doing, let’s aim to be better and making this world a better place. And as Jenny has, projected, is, please join our Mighty Networks. Subscribe to the Hub and follow us on all our socials. CCF. Jenny, over to you.

00:55:03:07
[Jenny]: Thank you so much. I knew that was going to be such a rich conversation. Thank you all for sharing so much of your life experiences. It’s incredible to know you even better after, after three years through this event. Thanks for being so generous with your learnings for the network. Thank you all.

00:55:25:19
[Lidia]: Thank you. Adios. [Cross talk] Bye bye.